The transcript of this episode can be accessed by clicking the “Transcript” button below the title. All other episodes are here.
Luke talks with Dr. Ricardo Miranda, Academic Secretary of the Programa Universitario de Estudios sobre Democracia, Justicia y Sociedad (PUEDJS-UNAM) in Mexico City. PUEDJS is a multifaceted initiative that “dreams of the possibility of achieving true democratic processes in Mexico” by promoting “dialogue, debate, research and citizen participation to generate reflection and action.” Ricardo discusses the initiative’s work, presents various definitions of democracy, and discusses Mexico’s Constitution and the importance of judicial reform.
This episode is in Spanish. An abridged transcript in English is below and a video of the interview in English is available here.
Luke: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Democratic Constitution Podcast. I'm excited to be talking to Ricardo Miranda.
Ricardo: Thank you, Luke. We are here in Tlaltelolco, in the historic center of Mexico City. For those watching from abroad, you are welcome to visit PUEDJS.
Luke: How do you describe PUEDJS?
Ricardo: I like to see PUEDJS as a laboratory in the sense that we are experimenting and always trying to understand and comprehend the political and democratic reality in Mexico, Latin America, and the rest of the world. We are constantly experimenting with and creating new methodologies and theories to observe the world in innovative ways. No other center is doing the same. We also do traditional research, publish books and magazines, and have a project that we like to call “citizen science,” which makes audiovisual products like our podcast. We also make TikToks and have newspapers for students in which they can express their concerns and diversity of thought, including the publication “Goooya.” We have a digital library called Tlatelolco Lab which analyzes social networks and the presence of democracy within those networks. Finally, we host fairs about democracy and cultural events that take place at the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM).
Luke: I’ve seen some of your projects, including the Tree of Democracy. How would you describe democracy?
Ricardo: This is another question we’ve analyzed in depth. As you mentioned, the Tree of Democracy is one of our projects that tries to see all of the different ways of conceiving democracy. As you noted, some consider it as a system of universal suffrage, others as people power, etc. The Tree of Democracy looks at these questions not just from a Western, but from an Eastern perspective, too. We have researchers and thinkers from India and other traditions beyond the Western perspective. The tree explores these distinct ways of understanding democracy. I like to conceive democracy a little bit as you mentioned — people power — but going even further. For example, the Mexican Constitution establishes (and this is a very rich concept) that democracy is a form of life. This means that democracy should not only be at the macro level in the large institutions like the country, the state, congress, within elections, etc. It should also be present in everyday life. For example, are our families democratic? Who makes the decisions in our families, the children or the parents? There’s a balance of power within most families that wouldn’t allow us to call them democratic. We can also ask if schools are democratic. Some elect their authority figures by popular vote — the most minimal definition of democracy — and others don’t. We can also think of institutions like the army and the workplace and ask if they are democratic. Therefore, to understand democracy as a system of life means seeing it beyond the large structural institutions like nation-states, and seeing it also as a part of everyday life. I like to understand democracy as the power of the people (poder del pueblo) when we think about it at the state level, and as a form of life — as is established in the Constitution — in the everyday.
Luke: I’d like to ask you about the Mexican Constitution.
Ricardo: The Constitution of Mexico is from 1917. It’s 108 years old and is the product of the Mexican Revolution of 1910. The revolution, as you may know, had a very important radical line of social rights, led by Emiliano Zapata and Francisco Villa. The rights benefited not only the working class — the 8-hour work day, for example — but also the campesinos and indigenous people as seen in the right to land, to universal and free education, to a universal health system, etc. Therefore, the Constitution of 1917 is a product of the 1910 revolution and was the first constitution in the world to enshrine what are today called social rights, including education, health, housing, etc. It also includes the classic freedoms — of course, more individual, not so much social — such as the right to vote, the right to express oneself freely in public, the right of association or assembly, etc. The Mexican Constitution — due to that radical wing of social rights headed by Zapata and Villa — was the first in the world, even before the constitution of the USSR, to include these rights.
Luke: Yes, the progressive elements in the Mexican Constitution. Certain rights to work, to live, etc.
Ricardo: Of course, there were other political forces in the Civil War fighting to get some of their demands in the Constitution. But the social demands were also captured in the Constitution and continue to this day. All of this makes the Mexican Constitution one of the most progressive constitutions in the world.
Luke: Some people describe the U.S. Constitution as a religion. It’s very important in U.S. political life. However, today, there are people writing books describing the Constitution as a weight or chain. People are talking about the problems in our political institutions. What’s the discourse like around the Mexican Constitution in political and academic spaces?
Ricardo: The discourse around the Constitution in Mexico is similar to that in the U.S. in the sense that our Constitution is very important to political and academic discourse and in everyday life. All the social demands that are made both on the streets and in institutions appeal to the Constitution. It’s often said that the Constitution is what allows us to live in freedom, peace, in community, and is what establishes fundamental rights for everyone. The Constitution is very much loved, so to speak, here in Mexico.
The Mexican constitutional tradition is also deeply imbued with checks and balances, which creates a kind of fundamental contradiction. On the one hand, this system of checks and balances is defended. On the other hand, substantive and important rights can be granted only to be stopped or taken away by the courts. This has generated, among many other reasons of course, certain crises of the legitimacy of the judicial power. This has jeopardized democracy in Mexico and around the world. Today, we are seeing a period of democratic crisis all over the world.
Luke: I think the judicial reforms in June are very important. I’d like to read something from Morena, the party with a lot of power right now: “With this constitutional reform, our country is at the forefront of international democratization processes, as it promotes a profound renewal of state institutions by ensuring greater citizen participation in crucial matters of public life." What do you think of the judicial reforms?
Ricardo: Yes, this reform of the judiciary — the judicial reform, as it's often called here in Mexico — is overdue. It’s a very, very important reform that democratizes, revitalizes, and reforms in some way the institutions of the Mexican state, specifically the judicial branch — and it’s doing all of this with a wide margin of support. This type of reform is unique. No other country on the planet has done anything similar; the closest is Bolivia, but they only elect the judges of their constitutional court by popular vote. Come June 1, not only will the judges of our constitutional courts be elected (the Supreme Court and the Electoral Tribunal), but also the judges of circuit courts and district courts. This means there are around 1,660 positions at stake.
This reform birthed a new constitution outside of the traditional means and procedures, such as a constituent assembly in which a new constitution is voted on and discussed in its entirety. This was a reform to only a few articles of the Constitution. However, given the radical nature of the reform and given the political scope and implications — given the legal and social implications it has for Mexico and the world — I like to think of this reform as a new constituent moment, something that radically transforms the Constitution and our democratic system.
Our new constitution is teaching the world new lessons about democracy. For example, it’s possible to have a robust democracy without the judiciary being elected by the people and it’s also possible to have a robust democracy if we elect our judges. Holding elections doesn’t necessarily imply breaking with the separation of powers. It doesn’t necessarily imply that the executive or legislative branch will control the judicial branch. Electing judges by popular vote is important because it brings the citizens — the people — closer to their judges, to the people in charge of justice. This way, judges can form new views about the law, the Constitution, and what’s fair and just in a specific case. The more voices that participate in the construction of an idea of justice, the richer and more democratic that justice will be. Issues of justice are not just technical issues; they are also social and political issues. Through different positions, we can build a richer sense of justice that's more in tune with the complex times of the 21st century.
Luke: Why do you think we have such high levels of support for this reform?
Ricardo: It's a very interesting question. In my opinion, it's because, particularly in Mexico, judges have been seen as important actors who have not managed to materialize the rich content of social rights that we have in the Constitution. Judges have, in some ways, been an obstacle to making these social rights — to housing, work, universal healthcare, etc. — into a reality. Unfortunately, in Mexico today, there are still many people without decent housing, decent employment, or universal access to healthcare. It has often seemed like judges are one of the important factors that prevent those social rights that are in the Constitution from being translated into reality.
Furthermore, there are many cases of corruption within the judiciary and the courts. Also regarding nepotism, there are legal studies that show how many judges have extensive family connections within certain courts. Judges are also the highest-paid public officials in Mexico. They have very high salaries. In fact, one of the disputes surrounding this reform was that the ministers of the court, for example, have a higher salary than the president of the republic. Ministers are also perceived as having certain privileges, including high salaries, personal drivers, and multiple cars — luxuries that most people do not have. So, all these reasons are a kind of obstacle to the realization of social rights. There’s a lot of corruption and many privileges in Mexico. This corruption and life of privileges, coupled with the fact that they aren’t elected, is why many people think the judiciary needs to be revitalized — it needs to be reborn in some way.
Luke: There are problems with the judicial system in the U.S., but at least here in Mexico, people seem to be talking more about the problems.
Ricardo: Yes, that's part of what the ruling party (Morena) has brought with this reform. They have revitalized discussions and disputes surrounding the meaning and scope of the Constitution. Here in Mexico — despite what many say — we have a left-wing government, and our political and constitutional tradition is a left-wing tradition. We already talked about the Mexican Revolution, social rights, etc. Mexico is somewhat counterintuitive to the global trend, which is a bit more right-wing. In that sense, Mexico is giving a lesson in democracy, revitalization, and movement.
Luke: Would you like to say anything else?
Ricardo: Yes, I invite everyone to check out PUEDJS. We are preparing a series of analyses and studies that will follow the judicial reform from moment to moment. We invite everyone to consult our social networks and our website and stay tuned for the research, outreach, and citizen science products we'll be releasing in the coming months regarding judicial reform.
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